Cupramine for Ich

[Catsaholic]

Anyone ever used Cupramine to treat an Ich? It's been highly recommended to me, but after 2nd treatment (today) fish are reaching for air. I did immediate 20% water change, but it will affect meds concentration. Any suggestions?
P.S. I added salt (1 Tbsp per 5 gal) for 2 days in the row, increased temp to 85 - 86, and turned on an air pump.

[fantasticfins]

Salt should only be added to the desired salinity and left or maintained as the treatment is needed. Adding more salt just increases the salinity, possibly to a higher dose than needed.

I suggest using either coppersafe or aquarisol instead of cupramine. I've had better success with these and only bad experiance with cupramine. I use aquarisol with a pleco only tank, and coppersafe with other fish in the aquarium. I use 1 tablespoon of salt per 10 gallons and increase temperature to 85 degrees.

Dale

[jackson]

What fish are you treating?

I don't like using meds for ich.
I just raise the temp and use salt. I make sure no light can get into the tank and I increase the air supply as well. I do water changes every other day and clean the gravel as well.

[Catsaholic]

What fish are you treating?

I don't like using meds for ich.
I just raise the temp and use salt. I make sure no light can get into the tank and I increase the air supply as well. I do water changes every other day and clean the gravel as well.

There are plecos, angel fish, 3 clown loaches, cardinal tetras, two cribs, and two green sailfin mollies in the tank. Lights are off. I just added second air pump. I'll try water changes. Should I replace salt to maintain concentration as I changing the water? Would it be safe to change small amount of water (15-20%) daily?

[fantasticfins]

I usually start with a 40% water change and then treat with salt and aquarisol in your situation. I raise temp to 85 degrees. I treat aquarisol for two days then change water (40%) and treat for two more days and it usually does the trick (adding salt after water changes). Be sure to remove carbon. Any questions, just ask. I continue this until fish are cured. It's rather safe to treat with aquarisol for extended periods of time.

Dale

[Catsaholic]

Dale, thank you very much. Please help me understand. On the bottle of Cupramine there is a warning not to use with other meds. I also added twice salt, 1 Tbsp per 5 gal. Can I still use your method?

[fantasticfins]

Cupramine is a very concentrated form of copper. Aquarisol is also copper, but in a safer, less concentrated form. If your fish are at the top gasping, I would guess you've given a dose stronger than you fish can handle. If you wish to continue to use cupramine, use half as much as you did the first time. I haven't used cupramine in a long time, but aren't you supposed to test for copper in the water collumn when using cupramine? Did you purchase a copper test kit?

[Catsaholic]

O gosh, I didn't know about it! I will buy this test tomorrow morning. I just hope my little guys can hold on until tomorrow. They have two air pumps right now.

[fantasticfins]

Are your fish still gasping?
Are you using carbon filtration? Carbon removes copper.
Did you check temp with a good thermometer?
If your fish appear to be doing well, you have the right dose for your fish. Some fish cannot handle high levels of copper, and some can. I use aquarisol because it seems to be safe for all fish. If your fish are still gasping, do another 20% change.

Fish will gasp for air from overdose, temp, poor water quality, and a few non-related issues. I would guess they were gasping because of too much copper.

[Catsaholic]

Dale, thank you very much for all the advices. Fish seems to be better in the morning. Only baby Royal pleco is still reaching for an air. Temp. is 85, I checked for ammonia, NO2 and NO3; I removed carbon when started this treatment. Tank is a big mess, only few plants survived, and Ricky Eye is everywhere. I'm going to buy copper test kit right now. Will keep you updated.
Irena

Irena's plecos (I hope it will stay the same!):

Albino Bristlenose
Albino Long Fin Bristlenose
Lace Long Fin Bristlenos
L052 Flounder
L091 Three Beacon
L124 Para Pleco
L134 Leopard Frog
L144 Golden Bristlenose
L172A Golden Vampire
L182 Starlight Bristlenose - 3
L190 Royal
L200 Green Phantom
L204 Flash (Emperor)
L264 Sultan
LDA33 Big White Spot

[Catsaholic]

Copper is at 0.20 mg/L. Recommended concentration is 0.25 mg/L. I did another 20% water change. Hopefully, it will help. So far, all fish are calm; the only one that is uncomfortable, is Royal pleco.

[jackson]

The Royal is not calm because the copper is bothering it. Copper based meds are not safe to be used with plecos and scaleless fish. I personally would just treat with warm temps and salt. It has always worked for me in the past. Your plants are dead because of the copper. I am guessing ricky eyes is cloudy eye that is also do to the copper in the water.

I have used nox-ich at 3/4 the dose and it has worked out for me in the past as well. I was also treating with salt and warm temps at the same time. It worked out perfectly. But if your fish are not sugar coated I would stick with just salt, warmer temps and no light.

When you do a water change add the salt back into your tank at the right amount. I would do a 15-20% water change each day if you can or maybe a bit less 10-15% and clean the gravel as well.

If you can soak their foods with fresh garlic it always helps. Parasites hate garlic. I would cut up some cloves into sort of big chunks lets the foods soak with it and then drop just the foods in. If you are using flakes this might not work. If you feed them shrimp and veggies this will work.

Another thing is your royal is being kept with carnivores. This will not work out for it in the end. The should be kept with other veggies eating plecos to avoid intestinal problems in the long run.

Do you have wood in there for it to eat?

[Hitch]

The Royal is not calm because the copper is bothering it. Copper based meds are not safe to be used with plecos and scaleless fish. I personally would just treat with warm temps and salt. It has always worked for me in the past. Your plants are dead because of the copper. I am guessing ricky eyes is cloudy eye that is also do to the copper in the water.

I have used nox-ich at 3/4 the dose and it has worked out for me in the past as well. I was also treating with salt and warm temps at the same time. It worked out perfectly. But if your fish are not sugar coated I would stick with just salt, warmer temps and no light.

When you do a water change add the salt back into your tank at the right amount. I would do a 15-20% water change each day if you can or maybe a bit less 10-15% and clean the gravel as well.

If you can soak their foods with fresh garlic it always helps. Parasites hate garlic. I would cut up some cloves into sort of big chunks lets the foods soak with it and then drop just the foods in. If you are using flakes this might not work. If you feed them shrimp and veggies this will work.

Another thing is your royal is being kept with carnivores. This will not work out for it in the end. The should be kept with other veggies eating plecos to avoid intestinal problems in the long run.

Do you have wood in there for it to eat?

+ (enter really large number)

[Catsaholic]

The Royal is not calm because the copper is bothering it. Copper based meds are not safe to be used with plecos and scaleless fish. I personally would just treat with warm temps and salt. It has always worked for me in the past. Your plants are dead because of the copper. I am guessing ricky eyes is cloudy eye that is also do to the copper in the water.

I have used nox-ich at 3/4 the dose and it has worked out for me in the past as well. I was also treating with salt and warm temps at the same time. It worked out perfectly. But if your fish are not sugar coated I would stick with just salt, warmer temps and no light.

When you do a water change add the salt back into your tank at the right amount. I would do a 15-20% water change each day if you can or maybe a bit less 10-15% and clean the gravel as well.

If you can soak their foods with fresh garlic it always helps. Parasites hate garlic. I would cut up some cloves into sort of big chunks lets the foods soak with it and then drop just the foods in. If you are using flakes this might not work. If you feed them shrimp and veggies this will work.

Another thing is your royal is being kept with carnivores. This will not work out for it in the end. The should be kept with other veggies eating plecos to avoid intestinal problems in the long run.

Do you have wood in there for it to eat?


Thanks a lot!
There are a lots of wood in this tank. I will follow your advice about salt (and everything else). What is the salt concentration that you using? I will have to recalculate it and add some more when I'll change water tomorrow.
You've just answered my other question. I was wondering, how to decide on who lives with whom. I thought about size, temperament, but I never thought about food. This is brilliant! Thank you. I will do all the relocation once ich is over.
P.S. When I should put back carbon filter?

[Catsaholic]

+ (enter really large number)

No, really REALLY large number. LOL :)

[jackson]

Thanks a lot!
There are a lots of wood in this tank. I will follow your advice about salt (and everything else). What is the salt concentration that you using? I will have to recalculate it and add some more when I'll change water tomorrow.
You've just answered my other question. I was wondering, how to decide on who lives with whom. I thought about size, temperament, but I never thought about food. This is brilliant! Thank you. I will do all the relocation once ich is over.
P.S. When I should put back carbon filter?

I follow the instruction on the carton of the salt. I think it is 1tbs per every 5 gals of water.

As for carbon I do not use it in any of my tanks I just keep up with the water changes and that's about it. I also do not use any ammonia remover as well. In my filters I use lava rocks and filter floss.

I would only use carbon when I want to remove chemicals from my water. So if you want to stop using the meds add the carbon and I think in 24hrs it should have done its job then do a 20% water change.

I am not saying you should not use the aquarisol ( spelling ) Dale has given some great info as well. I have just never found it to be a useful med. I have treated tanks full of Datnoids with it and had to switch over to malachite green ( nox-ich) to do the job right.

Ther eis also this stuff called rid-ich+

here are the - Specifications
Contains formaldehyde (11.52% formalin) U.S. P. grade 4.26% and premium quality aquaculture-grade zinc-free chloride salt of malachite green 0.038%. The ingredients meet United States Pharmacopoeia science-based quality standards for health care. The U.S. P. is the official public standards-setting authority for all prescriptions and over-the-counter medicines and other healthcare products. Made in the U.S.A. specifications

It is said to be very useful and safe for most fish. I have never used it but lots of people swear by it.

Here are the nox-ich specifications - active ingredients sodium chloride malachite green 1.0%
Inert ingredients - 99% = total 100%


I have been reading some articles and they say salt does nothing to ich. I find this very questionable.

I know ich will not survive temps of 86f+ so if your fish can handle it raise the temp ( make sure the can and be sure to add more air stones to the tank). Then some articles say if you raise the temps you are accelerating the life cycle of the parasite ( very true ) so if you don't use "meds" you will cause a huge increase in the parasites activity thus causing your fish to be overwhelmed by them and death will occur. I can sort of see that happening but I have not seen it happen yet LOL

I don't know what to say about most of these articles but I have used the salt+high temps+water changes each day and the no light method and it has worked for me every time.

I suggest you do what you feel is right. We can only suggest the methods that have worked for us.

Also on this whole super ich deal. From what I read fish have like a 2% chance of living through it. they call it super ich because it has become immune to the meds we have used over the years. I think it can also tolerate higher temps as well.

I am just passing on what I have read. I am not sure if this is true or not.

I know myself and another on this iste have dealt with it treated the tank with strong meds but the plecs did not make it. Nothing I did helped. The fish were bought from the same supplier as well. This was also around the same time that the so called "super ich" came around.


No, really REALLY large number. LOL :)

Sorry I don't get it LOL

[Catsaholic]

Sorry I don't get it LOL
Hitch saw this tank and amount of wood in it. I think I went overboard. It looks nice though.
I'll try daily water changes and salt. I have to educate myself on what you said about the filters, I've never heard of it. I know that in the heavily planted tank you don't really need a filter, but you don't plant pleco tank...
Jackson, thank you very much, I've learned a lot from your postings.

[CanadaPleco]

Honestly if you have a tank full of plecos and they have ich and you don't use meds, you'll most likely lose them! I have to agree fully here with Dale.

Salt and high temps only is not going to get rid of it. I've tried this method only to flush my fish several days later.

High copper levels damage gills/gill function/ability to breathe.

Stick with the methods Dale has said and it will clear up for you.

[jackson]

Honestly if you have a tank full of plecos and they have ich and you don't use meds, you'll most likely lose them! I have to agree fully here with Dale.

Salt and high temps only is not going to get rid of it. I've tried this method only to flush my fish several days later.

High copper levels damage gills/gill function/ability to breathe.

Stick with the methods Dale has said and it will clear up for you.

I have to disagree with this. I have treated many fish from pleco to large perds with no meds and I beat the ich. Like I said when I thought I needed to use meds I went with nox-ich.

I personally would not use copper based meds in my tanks.

To each his own

[Catsaholic]

Thank you everybody. At times like this, I think, what a wonderful community we are!
Here is a sad update: Royal is gone and so one of Clown Loaches. I think, other two will follow today. Upper fish are clean, but plecos are not. Some of them have just a few dots, but poor L200 covered completely.
I changed the water yesterday, and brought copper level to 0.10mg/L. At this level, I don't think it will do me (fish) any good, and I definitely don't want to raise it again.

Off topic: I went to Lucky Aq today (just to sight see, I'm not buying anything until I will sort this Ich problem out). They have very interesting pleco that they receive like L183. It's not L183, and they don't know what it is. It's jet black with bright white polka dots. Spots are bigger than on L182, but smaller than on LDA33. Nice fish! In the next tank, they have pleco that they sell as a Medusa. The only think, it is not a Medusa, and, once again, identity unknown.
In case anyone will happen to be there and figure out what they are (esp. black-white one), please post it.

[Hitch]

how many did they have? bah....just when I came back to London tooo......T.T

are there fewer spots? and spots farther apart?

possibly looking like this? http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=751

[Catsaholic]

how many did they have? bah....just when I came back to London tooo......T.T

How many of whom? If you talking about black-and- white, I think 2 or 3. But who they are???? They not even priced yet. I can try and ask my friend to get them for you. I can put them in my bottom Q tank, this tank is fine.

[Hitch]

ya sorry, I meant the white dotted bns. do they look like the ones in the link above?

[Catsaholic]

Hitch, I sent you PM

[jackson]

Thank you everybody. At times like this, I think, what a wonderful community we are!
Here is a sad update: Royal is gone and so one of Clown Loaches. I think, other two will follow today. Upper fish are clean, but plecos are not. Some of them have just a few dots, but poor L200 covered completely.
I changed the water yesterday, and brought copper level to 0.10mg/L. At this level, I don't think it will do me (fish) any good, and I definitely don't want to raise it again.

Off topic: I went to Lucky Aq today (just to sight see, I'm not buying anything until I will sort this Ich problem out). They have very interesting pleco that they receive like L183. It's not L183, and they don't know what it is. It's jet black with bright white polka dots. Spots are bigger than on L182, but smaller than on LDA33. Nice fish! In the next tank, they have pleco that they sell as a Medusa. The only think, it is not a Medusa, and, once again, identity unknown.
In case anyone will happen to be there and figure out what they are (esp. black-white one), please post it.

Sorry to hear that.

Continue with what ever treatment you feel is right for you.

I am just going to state once again that copper based meds are not safe to be used on plecos and other scaleless fish as well as most if not all bottom dwellers.

Clown loaches are very sensitive to meds and using copper on them is not safe in any way. They do have scales but very fine ones almost making them a scaleless fish.

[jackson]

I must apologize for not paying attention to the fact that you have clown loaches in there salt will also kill them or cause them to be stressed out even more.

If you can take the other 2 clown loaches out and follow this link
Dealing with Ich :: Loach Forum for Aquarium Fish (http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=2599)

That will also work for plecos as well

[Catsaholic]

Here is an update. Fish are doing much better. Yesterday, I thought that I will loose L200 and Loaches. They doing better, less spots, and L200 was sitting on his favourite stone today. I hope, casualties are over.
I figured out were Ich came from. I have an Emperor Tetras in this tank (I think, I posted it previously as Cardinal). So apparently, there is a saying, something like "Look at the Emperor Tetra the way it didn't like, and it will be sick". Same stands for Cardinals. Both are extremely prone to ich.
Use it us a warning and don't but Cardinal or Emperor Tetras.
I want to thank everybody for help one more time!

[Catsaholic]

I can't believe it! My L200 turned upside down and died on the spot. My happiness was way premature...
I hate Emperor Tetra!!!

[jackson]

Sorry to hear that :(

Where did you get the tetra from and how long have you had it?

[Catsaholic]

I bought them from the BA, and had them at least for 6 weeks before it happened. They actually were first fish in this tank.

[Yam]

Hi,

Just saw this. A few of my panaques have these white blotches on them (like dried wiped white paint). I started using Aquarisol today. Got a question, once you put in the dose, I am assuming the level of copper does not drop like other meds over time. It stays in the tank. So if you do a 50% water change later, you just add back 50% of the missing Aquarisol dossage?